I cannot post on this thread so I wanted to get this up for everyone to see. I know there have been issues with the ferm room lately. There have been numerous explosions, spills and just general uncleanliness going on in there. I know there have been batches that have been infected in the past. After brewing for the last two years I hadn't had an infected batch until my last TWO batches. I haven't changed anything about my brewing or sanitizing process. I am not sure if they infections are coming from equipment at the brewhouse or if they are developing simply because the current nature of the ferm room. These infections could easily be coming from tainted siphons, wine thiefs and the like. All it takes is for one person to use a piece of plastic equipment on an infected batch and they will start spreading to everyone else beers.
I want to see if anyone has a good gameplan for how we can prevent taitined equipment and a crowded sometimes dirty ferm room from infecting everyone else beers. It is pretty disheartening and aggravating having clean beers go bad with no easy way to track down the problem.
At a minimum I think we need to practice and preach better procedures in the ferm room. People need to be using blow-off when appropriate and then replacing with airlocks after the vigorous fermentation has subsided. People need to remove blow off tubes and containers from the ferm room after using them and people need to make sure they aren't tainting siphons and wine thief's while also thoroughly cleaning them after use.
is there an easy way to clean the fermroom. i have a sprayer to hose down the walls and ceiling if that helps the condtions with a proper sterylizing solution...
...igz...
Bring some of the infected beer tomorow, id like to see what it has.
One beer is a Rye Saison and the other is a Brown Ale with cocoa nibs and vanilla beans. Both of them developed the same signs. The white fuzz/powder/flakes appear to be some sort of lacto infection. Between the grain mill being in the center of the brewhouse, the spent grain right outside the door and the general state of the ferm room this doesn't suprise me. The key here is how can we isolate the cause of this, take care of the issue and set in place steps to keep our beers clean.
I will be happy to bring samples of both to the event tomorrow. However, both are kegged and so far show no signs of infection in their taste profiles (I am confident that they are infected based on the pellicles that were forming). I know down the road despite being kegged and kept cold the beers flavor could take a turn. I just want to eliminate the chance for infection in future batches and not infect all of my brewing equipment.
I don't know what material would suffice for this suggestion nor how expensive it is. But, since the wood is warping, maybe we could replace it with a waterproof (plastic? metal?) material so that we can just hose/spray it down without damaging it?
im sure the ferm room is not the cleanest and we do need to do something about blowoff.....but the carboys should be sealed when put in there....i would think the souce of infection would be the tubing and racking equipment....
Jim, I checked out the woods selves earlier, they are in no danger of going anywhere, there is nothing to worry about in terms of their structural integrity. The only easy fix to make them easier to clean would be to paint them with an high gloss exterior paint. Beyond that replacing them with wire shelves makes sense. But if we go down that road we should cover the walls, floor and ceiling in a vinyl wall covering so there are no absorptive surfaces anywhere in the room. But that's a big deal.
One other thing we may consider doing would be to prohibit wild yeast form being used in the brewhouse (people could pitch it at home if they wanted) Wild yeast is not easily killed by star san or bleach or any other cleaners that are accessible to us. Bacteria, while easier to eliminate, should be discussed as well.
Before we make any big plans for altering the ferm room, I'd like to know costs for wire shelving vs painting the shelves. I'm all for making that room easier to clean and cleaning the shelves / floor / walls on a regular basis. The ferm room is one of our major draws for membership, it needs to stay top notch.
Another way they could be getting infected is the way the wort is being cooled...not just the wort chiller..but the actual processes involved. I used to get the occasional infection in my own batches until i figured out that my process for chilling was not the best. I used to chill with the pot and windows in my apt open. Now I shut all windows, shut off any air or heat, cover the pot (after cooling to 180 to avoid dms precursor), and cover the remaining opening in the pot where the chiller sticks out with al foil. Since i have improved my practices i have not have had a infected batch since.....maybe we should take extra steps to shut off air flow when all brewers are chilling ................just a thought
in terms of cost for paint - free. just sayin. only thing to contend with once something is painted - is that it needs to maintained over time. also, a high gloss, durable surface NEEDS TIME TO CURE or it will stick to and come up with anything heavy you put on it, ie, every carboy.
...igz...
So. One accident in the ferm room is my fault. I supervised someone on Saturday who used an airlock instead of a blow-off.
I'll fully fess up that this is my fault since it was on my watch. But, I'd like to put "ferm room" on the agenda for this weekend's meeting. I was watching all aspects of the brew (to ensure people don't blow the place up) and I even asked what people were brewing. What I didn't ask is the OG of the brew and whether they should use an airlock or blow.
Let's come up with a list of different aspects of a brew day the supervising brewer should be looking for (including the blow-off/airlock).
Something should probably also be posted - large and prominently - on the ferm room door regarding blow-off vs. airlock as well as the repercussions for making a mess.
a sign on the door that says " < OG, use airlock, > OG, use blow-off "? whats the cutuff? 1.060?
...igz...
It's nice of Jim to say that, but it wasn't his fault at all. I received a call from Mark this morning informing me that my carboy had exploded. I was more than surprised to hear the news, due to the fact that I made the judgment call to use a airlock instead of a blow off....believing the blow-off would be unnecessary. Both brews were session ales, neither having an OG above 1.045. Both topped off at 5-5.2 gallons, and both in 6.5 gallon carboys. Both were inoculated with wyeast 1968, a yeast I've used numerous times on a range of ales with OG's coming in well over 1.075, without ever experiencing a krausen over 1'-1.5'. Taking all that into account, I thought I was more than safe.
It wasn't a lack of education or experience, or oversight by Jim for that matter...just a judgment call with a surprising result. I'm heading over as soon as I get off work today to clean up. Needless to say this wasn't the first impression I was hoping to make, but I certainly look forward to meeting everyone else! I'll be monitoring this thread in the days/weeks to come. I'm be more than happy to throw my hat into the ring and help out however I can when a decision about all this is made.
-CP
Just a quick question on my part. I almost always use a blow-off tube, should I be using an airlock when the OG is low enough? If not, is there any reason we couldn't just get some communal containers and tubes (the apple juice containers kind of do this now) and force everyone to use a blow off tube? Could make things simpler, but I don't have the experience to know if this is a terrible idea.
Oh... my... god. Why haven't we done this? http://thechive.com/2013/09/17/guys-rig-up-buddies-plumbing-with-beer-wh...
Some people like the airlocks, and given our general sanitation state, I don't really want communal blow off tubes. I replace mine that I use at home every year weather or not I've had an infection.
At any rate, that ferm room needs to be at the top of the agenda for Sunday: everything from making it easy-to-clean to averting messess to who cleans and how it gets cleaned when an accident does happen.
FWIW, I always use a blow-off (no matter the gravity) and never replace it with an airlock (but I do change my blow-off water and replace it with santizer water).
EDIT: as Mark said, the ferm room is our piece de resistance in the brew house; we don't want to turn people off from fermenting there (and thus they'll stop brewing there, too).
::::ATTENTION:::: I need to clear my name and Jim's name!!! As Chuck is my confirming witness, my Graf was not the culprit of the fermentation explosion. We tracked the spray to a dark scotch ale brewed by "Rich" on 10/28. The stopper was punctured in the side with a very large amount of blowoff coming out and clear explosion splatter across the ceiling aimed directly at the space heater and my carboy on the ground!
I cleaned it all up anyway, I was there...AND I'M NOT ASKING FOR A THANK YOU. Just want to unbesmirch my name and reputation! *drinks*
Sorry, I thought it was yours. I should have done a better job figuring out which fermenter blew!
It would be nice to have some foam seperators between carboys as the quantity of issues with "exploding" carboys is really concerning. No one should have to loose a batch because of someone else's clog or airlock issues. I would suggest that we use something simple like 1/2" pink foam to divide the carboys into individual open lockers. Cut a hole for your blow off tubes, but that way if something happens it won't blow all over the other carboys and will hopefully contain the situation. I'm a huge stickler for cleanliness and have been really suprized by the use of the blowoff tubes and lack of general hygene in an area that is meant to breed yeast!
I would propose that along with the yeast class and the thought of "achievements" that we also do a cleanliness class.
Conrad
Well, it would appear from above that I am the culprit. Sorry for anyone who was affected and thanks to Christopher for cleaning it up. Not sure why it did that, it wasn't a very big beer and there was a lot of head space, but regardless I will have everything cleaned up and out of there tonight and will not use the ferm room in the future.
Rich,
This thread isn't (or shouldn't be) about shaming the person responsible for one particular mess. Yours is not the first mess created in the ferm room and it won't be the last. Homebrewing is a messy hobby. Obviously, in a shared space, we all endeavor to keep our messes from negatively impacting others, but sometimes shit happens. Don't beat yourself up over it, and don't feel obligated to bar yourself from using the ferm room in the future.
We'll just continue to work to avoid messes in the fermroom (and elsewhere in the brewhouse) by using good brewing common sense (which it actually sounds like you did). We'll also try to make changes so that future messes are more easily cleanable, which is part of what this discussion is about.
As long as people practice good brewing sense, and clean up after themselves as much as possible when a mess happens, we should be ok.
-Adam
+1 to what Adam said. We're still ironing out the kinks on our brew house procedures, &c. Hell, I was responsible forone of the worst messes in there. A stout which not only exploded upward but bubbled over and leaked down the entire length of the shelf; which meant I wiped the entire shelf by moving/wiping all vessles on the shelf slowly and carefully, one-at-a-time. The next time I brewed, I ended up running packing tape over my stopper to secure it and making sure I put my fermenter in a big plastic tub to catch any bubbler-over...better safe than sorry!
Don't worry about it! Continue to ferment there!
Rich,
Adam put it very well and I agree with him completely. This happens even to the best of us. Brewing together because it helps us learn from one another. Dont worry about this blow off, its really not a big deal. For the sake of your beer you should leave it in the ferm room for another week, let it finish up. If it cools off now the yeast will not have a chance to absorb all the remaining off flavors like diacetyl.
James
CHAOS Vice President
From experience, I should make something very clear, when using glass carboys (and probably plastic too) under no circumstances should anyone ever tape or otherwise affix their airlock down. If the airlock clogs and is taped down the carboy can explode. I am not exaggerating, this has happened. Not only is it a huge mess but it is really, really dangerous. Better to have a mess from overflowing than 5 gallons of beer and glass shards everywhere.
No harm, no foul. It worked.
I taped the rubber bung; the blow off hose stuck in the bung was free to pop out should the need arise.
And it was a better bottle....
Its not just you, I have seen many people do it.
T be more specific , in this case the plastic airlok shot out and the 3/8" stopper hole subsequently clogged, then the carboy exploded. So even the orange caps with a blowoff have the possiility of clogging. Its not worth the risk.
Just an idea, but a laminated piece of paper with some basics on it on =
the door of the fermentation room would be great as the club expands.
Something like:
1. Did you name, date and place your phone number on your carboy (in =
case anything happens)?
2. Did you notice any carboys or issues in the room? If so please call =
the following numbers....
3. Did you double check your hoses, airlock, and plug?
4. Does the temperature in the room seem proper, or is it too hot/cold?
I know we all hate things like this, but it is imperative as growth =
continues that we have some freedom in a framework to ensure blame isn't =
misappropriated and that everyone is helping each other for the best =
quality of product.
Conrad,
That's a great idea, and not at all difficult to implement.
-Adam
i agree...but i think we should not allow airlocks untill the 1st week of fermentation is complete
Re-reading my last post, I feel bad...it may have come off like I was throwing Rich under the bus there. Really, that wasn't what the purpose of the post was. It was meant more as a joke. Sorry Rich if you felt that way after reading it. Like everyone else said, we've all have our share of messes, none of which are ever intentional.
In the hallowed words of Paul Stanley (The Star Child), Gene Simmons (The Demon), Eric Singer (The Cat Man), and Tommy Thayer (The Spaceman):
It's so sad, livin' at home
Far from the city and the midnight fun
It's so bad, goin' to school
So far from me and the dirty things that we done
Don't be all anti-social with your fermentations!
- CP
I'm wary of making any prohibitions, so long as there is the expectation that people will use good sense and agree to clean up any mess as soon as they become aware of it. Maybe apprentice-level brewers should have to use a blow off, since they can't get in to clean up their mess without someone else opening the brewhouse, but brewer-level members should be trusted to use good judgment.
I don't think prohibiting airlocks is a good idea. I use airlock almost exclusively. All that people need to do is size their fermenters correctly. If you have little headspace, you may need to use a blow-off tube. I use 8 gallon bucket that has plenty of head space and can handle moderately high gravities. If I am doing a brew that is huge, I will add a little bit of fermcap-s.
I don't agree with prohibition as a way to manage this; simple education should be the answer.
This isn't the first time a carboy has blown...and it won't be the last. It happens, as long as its cleaned up...there is little risk of an over zealous fermentation hurting any other fermentations in the room.
I appreciate all the encouragement, but honestly, I was already thinking of taking my beers home when done where I can keep an eye on them while they are doing their magic. I have the room now and the go-ahead from the lady, so it just makes sense.
And I wanted to complain to whoever moved stuff around in there. I swear I had my eruption aimed squarely at Kyle's beers and somehow they got replaced with innocent bystanders. And also it was Daniel's recipe and I am pretty sure Pete dumped a bunch of sugar in there or something when I wasn't looking.
You need a Rookie Box. Something you could wheel out and hose off easily. I am going to work on a prototype for my basement.
sounds like too much fuss and discussion to me over the xploded better bottle. I'm sure everything's fine. I agree with Dave, just educate people. If you see someone using a stopper at first with high grav and little head room, discourage it.
I don't know if we need specific procedures for how to contact people, I think alchemists especially should make it their own priority to clean up any mess they find in the ferm room, whether it's theirs or not. It's just courteous and it's the sort of team spirit that they have. That being said, I'll be there later today to clean out some of my stuff.
Fermcap, Fermcap, Fermcap.
I've brewed dozens of high-gravity beers 1.090+ and have never used a blow off tube, or ever had any kind of explosion, foam-over, etc..
I use Fermcap for the boil (reduces surface tension preventing boilovers) and also add some more right when I put the wort into the carboy/fermbucket.
Not a lot of people know about fermcaps use during fermentation, but I will swear by it. Add fermcap, make sure it's mixed in well, and you won't have more than an inch or 2 of krausen.