Do NOT use dish soap for anything that comes in contact with your beer or equipment to make that beer. It leaves residue that can be harmful to your beer. It reduces head retention, the scented soaps and chemicals can effect your beer flavor, and dish soap can create off flavors in your beer.
Only use PBW & Star San to clean and sanitize brewing equipment and glassware in the brewhouse. They are restaurant quality and food grade safe. All restaurants and bars use these products to clean and sanitize... Even Randy Mosher agrees! (see resources below). Please use only these steps when cleaning shared brewhouse equipment, it's the brewing industry standard.
PBW
A common homebrewing cleaner, PBW (Powdered Brewery Wash) is oxygen based and cleans very well. In fact, I’ve found that it’s the best cleaner out there.
Pros: Performs better than all other cleaners
STAR SAN (Homebrew use)
- thoroughly wash all surfaces with PBW
- followed by a water rinse before application of sanitizing solution
- allow for a 5 minute immersion
- Do not rinse after Star San application.
RESOURCES:
http://homebrewacademy.com/best-homebrew-cleaners/
http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/StarSanTech-HB2.pdf
http://allaboutbeer.com/article/how-not-to-brew/
Absolutely - 100%! That includes mash tuns and brew kettles, they should be cleaned with PBW, not soap. If you clean right after using, it doesn't take much PBW.
www.singingboysbrewing.com
I agree, and said something when I visited before halloween saying those same things. Honeslty I don't bother cleaning my brew kettle most times, just a quick rinse and a scrub brush to remove any hops and proteins stuck to the walls.
Yes, I'm glad we are all agreeing on this topic.
Whomever is buying the dish soap, please stop. PBW can clean everything in our brewhouse and is safe, it even does the work for you. It eats away the buildup of residue that brewing leaves on our equipment.
I moved these dish soaps to the bathroom last night. Please take them home or leave them in there.
Do not return them to the brewing sink area or they will be thrown out.
Thank you.
Good luck, I've been trying to get people to stop doing this for the past few months.
I'll bump this forum to the top regularity and be on soap patrol if I need to be. I don't even want the soap left behind in our sponges and scrubbers it's detrimental to our beers and equipment.
Soap!? Even this trial n00b knows better.
smdh
Welcome knowledgeable trial brewer! - Thank you!
Just say NO to soap.
Then I volunteer Jim V. to do a write-up for PBW similar to the one he did for Starsan. :-) PBW is expensive and if everyone starts cleaning everything with it, it will go fast.
Or, I've heard OxyClean is chemically identical to PBW for a lot less money. Can the scientists among us let us know if that's a viable alternative?
Then I volunteer Jim V. to do a write-up for PBW similar to the one he did for Starsan. :-) PBW is expensive and if everyone starts cleaning everything with it, it will go fast.
Or, I've heard OxyClean is chemically identical to PBW for a lot less money. Can the scientists among us let us know if that's a viable alternative?
Oh, and, BTW, the only way to get people to stop using dish soap is to have it NOWHERE in the brew house and indeed throw it away as soon as you see it. If it's there, people will use it.
Oxyclean and PBW aren't identical, but you can make a viable PBW alternative from Oxyclean (and it should be oxyclean free to stick with the theme of the thread) and TSP 90, which is avaialble at some hardware stores.
Although, I would argue that if you made two beers, one on equipment cleaned with dish soap and one on equipment cleaned via PBW that no one would be able to tell the difference. That's just going to be my unpopular opinion, though.
I always thought PBW was for lazy people that didn't want to scrub and rinse properly, but I'm open to a re-education. I buy the idea that dish soap affects taste, head retention, etc. if you leave suds in the kettle, I'm not sure there's an effect if you rinse properly though.
Dish soap is really convenient. You grab the bottle and sponge and put a little blob on the sponge and then get to work. How can we replicate that with PBW? Pump bottles premixed at the sink area, maybe?
http://tinfoilhatbrewery.com/
You could also easily argue that dish soap is for lazy people not wanting to mix the water and PBW solution to properly clean the equipment.
Sure, I don't see why we couldn't have PBW pumps too, we already have Star San pumps in the brewhouse. They will just need to be clearly marked not to confuse the two.
This is not the first post about banning diish soap in the brewhouse, but I would hope that it could be the last. The great thing about PBW is you mix one bucket and you have it all day long. I don't see us going through it anymore of it than we already do becasue you don't need to use both dish soap and PBW, you would just be using PBW only. So if someone is there brewing everything gets cleaned with the same PBW bucket. You're not using it any more than we already are, you are just elminating an inferior cleaning solution.
Let me do some research and thinking on a PBW info sheet.
Its conceptually different than Star San, that is effective as a no-rinse sanitizer at a specific dilution and not at any other (either too strong to be no rinse or too weak to be effective). PBW is a cleanser, which is more or less effective depending on how much you use, but its always effective, if that makes sense.
In any case, I'll think about it and put together some guidelines for folks to comment on. Good idea, Jim C.
www.singingboysbrewing.com
Please back off with the name calling. Using dish soap used to be the norm at the brewhouse. Mash tuns were labeled with "Clean with soap and water after use". I'm not advocating using it when we have a better alternative readily available, but let's not label anyone lazy who is cleaning their equipment thoroughly, dish soap or not. Chances are, that is how they were shown to do it.
That's good history to know, Rich, thanks.
www.singingboysbrewing.com
Thanks Jim V. for offering to putting something formally together about how to clean equipment.
And for the record, I haven't used it in a long time, and agree you should avoid using it period for brewing equipment.
Is an info sheet for PBW altogeher necessary? I have always had good luck using my secret method of "follow the instructions on the bucket".
Also, I will second Kyle's 'unpopular' opinion. Soap residue sounds like a boogeyman to me. The surfactants might mess with head retention in extreme cases but it's not going to break RDWHAHB.
Signs repeating directions on labels may seem silly, but this thread is the first time I've seen the soap issue raised. There is more info at play here than what is printed in tiny type on buckets. The brewhouse should have more signs as reminders.
I think we should outline cleaning and sanitizing processes based on three use case scenarios: Brewing, Packaging, and Sampling.
We need a big info wall that covers the basics. The wall with the bench seems like the best real estate, already have the hop chart there, might as well consolidate everything. I will also add the info to the website under Brewhouse.
I will work with Jim V to continue what we started with the Star San info, feel free to chime in, more info the better.
Thanks Steven for your input. I do think that we need a larger clear process outlined graphic sign at the brew house. Great idea!
Steven, as we discussed on Sunday, I agree that the area above the bench on the east wall of the brewhouse is where the Starsan and any other instructions sheets should go. Glad to work with you on making it happen!
James is correct, I think, that it is ok to use dish soap on things like mash tuns and brew kettles if it is rinsed off really well. The real issue here (as with the Starsan) is our shared brewing space. If someone wants to risk messing up their brew by not sanitizing correctly, that's their problem, surely, but its also our problem because of the shared brewhouse.
Rinsing soap completely off is more challenging than it sounds - the residue wants to stick. It requires a brewer to be paying attention and not just splashing some water on the equipment. In a shared brew space, when a brewer doesn't pay enough attention to rinsing off soap, s/he messes it up not just for themselves but for the next brewer. Not using soap at all avoids the issue in a shared brewhouse.
Another way to look at it is the difference between what is acceptable and what is best practice. Everything I've read says that soap and thorough rinsing is acceptable but PBW is the best practice.
As always, just my two cents.
www.singingboysbrewing.com
I'm not so sure about the wall of instructions for the same reasons I changed my mind about the "Brewhouse Bible" (a single book somewhere in the brewhouse with a "how to" on everything in the brew house).
If we're going through the trouble of making signs, we want people to read them. Sure, if all the instructions are on the wall, we know exactly where to find the instructions. But, people start with the item they need to use and go from there. Very few people have the wherewithal and inclination to stop what they're doing, move themselves, and go look for instructions before using the item in-hand.
The instructions for StarSan need to be laminated/waterproof and permanently affixed to a big, gallon StarSan bottle which we can refill - if they can somehow be affixed to the head of the pump itself so that people have to touch the instructions in order to pump, all the better! The PBW instructions need to be glued to the lid of the PBW (or, better yet, the scoop!). Even then people will still pump and scoop without even noticing the instructions. But, if we're taking the time to make signs we need to put them not only *directly* on the item which they describe but also directly on the item in a spot which the user must touch (i.e., in the most stupidly obvious spot that even a blind person can't miss).
Jim, the Starsan instructions are laminated and by the Starsan where no one could miss them. What Steven and I discussed on Sunday was hanging another copy on the wall, so it would be in both places.
www.singingboysbrewing.com
Aha. I see. I though tit would be only on the wall...
Instead of a wall of text, we could laquer (or whatever clear water proof method of permanent adhesion) the instruction sheet to each brew station table top. That way there is really no excuses.
Just to add my two cents in about the dish soap thing...the way I see it I dont care if people use it or not. What I DO care about is NEVER getting any dish soap in my fermenter as I am very picky about the clenliness of my fermenters. If people use those same sponges for dish soap then I use one with PBW to wash my fermenter I'm getting dish soap and soap residue in there without realizing it.
At the very least could we make sure there are certain sponges/cleaning tools for fermenters or something? I've had problems in the past where I've realized I have to rinse off my fermenter for 20 minutes becuase there was still soap on the brewhouse sponges.
I just got off the phone with a Five Star Chemicals customer service person and clarified a couple of points that I was unclear about. Will try to work on this today or over the weekend.
www.singingboysbrewing.com
Here's a draft of a two-sided PBW sign or set of instructions. The recommended concentration seemed high to me, but I called Five Star and they confirmed that was the lowest concentration that they recommend.
Steven, I used our design from the Star San sheet, but you'll probably want to tweek it. And any thoughts on content are welcome, too, of course.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lAZwsWzi4HycTY88owTQA8hJGOB54_fJx4-9HnVjDIg/edit?usp=sharing
www.singingboysbrewing.com
Thanks for putting this together Jim!
Thanks Jim, I'll get to work on this soon, keep you posted.
Holy shit that is so much PBW! I have used 2 Tbsp/6 gallons and that has been more than effective. Do we really want to use that much?
Goodbye bucket of PBW.
On their website, they recommend 1-3 ounces per gallon. Ithat seemed like a lot to me also, so I called to talk to someone. They stuck to their recommendation - a minimum of 1 ounce (2 tablespoons) per gallon. I'll measure the ounces/tablespoon to make sure that conversion is correct.
Also, unlike Star San, which is not effective at the wrong ratio, the ratio for PBW isn't nearly as important. Elbow grease and hot water are pretty effective at cleaning.
The real point is to not use soap.
www.singingboysbrewing.com
Matt,
Keep in mind that with the keg washers, you only really need about 1 gallon of PBW for washing kegs and carboys.
Better bottle on their site recommends using 1 T/gal in water no hotter than 125 F, and using the rag method for cleaning. Soaking, especially at this concentration, isn't recommended, and could crack the carboy.
Glass will also soften with soaking, making it more susceptible to breakage or brushes poking through the wall.
I suppose the moral of the story is use the washers or bit of elbow grease.
Yes, what James said. You only need a gallon for the carboy washer. I usually use two gallons in a pot to wash stuff. So, you really don't need a lot to get through a brew session.
Yes, what James said. You only need a gallon for the carboy washer. I usually use two gallons in a pot to wash stuff. So, you really don't need a lot to get through a brew session.
I weighed one tablespoon of PBW and its slightly less than a 1/2 ounce, so 1 ounce equals 2 tablespoon, as the Five Star representative told me yesterday.
www.singingboysbrewing.com
I want to chip in on the signs thing, my experiance with stuff like this is that the people who take the time to read the signs, aren't the problem in the first place. (please make said signs, maybe don't tape/glue them to the tables...)
I'm also a little surprised at the outcry against dish soap. I don't use dish soap at the club (as there hasn't been any), but I have used it before and not had issues. It's all about knowing it can mess up your beer, and really rinsing out your stuff out afterwards. That being said... I actually don't like chemical sanatizers. Hot water sterilzes and then no chemicals. Just another thing to think about.
I mentioned in another thread that Star San can be reused, should we use one of the extra fermenters to have a batch of star san that just lives in the club? It would save money. I have heard that it's potency can be checked by litmus strip, although some seem to feel that's not accurate enough. Maybe one of those folks can be in charge of the star san, or setting up a SOP for it.
After mulling on it over the weekend, I'd like to suggest a different approach for the PBW, instead of the instruction sheet I drafted. For the Starsan, full instructions are good - new brewers during their supervised brewdays can be directed to the instructions, they can be a good reminder, and its critical that the correct dilution be made - 1 ounce Starsan per five gallons of water.
For the PBW, the real issue is just to use it - not dish soap. The dilution isn't critical, at all - it will work at a very low dilution if you let it sit and/or use a lot of elbow grease. PBW's recommended dilution rate is really high, as Matt pointed out.
So, instead of an instruction sheet like the one I drafted, how about we just put up a sign that says something like:
No soap in the brewhouse, please! Use PBW.
For normal cleaning, use 2 tablespoons per five gallons of hot water.
How does that sound?
www.singingboysbrewing.com
I think thats a lot better. In all honesty people probably werent going to read a detailed instruction sheet for what basically amounts to "brewing soap"
Works for me!
Agreed, two page lengthy write ups do not make the best "signs", but it is good we are capturing this info. I have a sign in me that makes this visual, fast, and easy, but it will take a little more tinkering time.
I will post my cleaning and sanitizing infographic here when it's ready to share.