We are looking for a motor to power the grain mill. I have been trying to figure out what we need but it is a very confusing process. My understanding is that we need a motor that produces over 60lb*in @ 100rmp. Most motors seem to be a much higher RPM (+1000), but we are going to get a better crush at a lower RPM.
Can someone help us out?
Also, we are trying to avoid a pulley system as it is more susceptible to breaking and increase the possibility of people getting hurt.
If we don't want a pulley, we are going to need some sort of reducing gear, I think. My understanding is that high torque, low RPM motors are not that common, but my understanding is extremely limited.
Can anyone chime in who is not talking out of his a**?
-Adam
It looks like the MaltMill website (http://www.barleycrusher.com/barleycrusher.php) suggests about 300-500 RPM. Are we looking to use a geared motor to put it out of the way or is direct drive preferable? Either way we'll need to look into a shaft coupling to connect the two together. I'd recommend we consider a spider coupling to reduce the wear on both parts.
I'll take a look around the Internet today, we may be able to find a surplus motor from an old piece of hardware that would save us some money and also meet our RPM needs. If we could, it would simplify things greatly and we could just box out the motor to keep people's finger's safe.
Oh... my... god. Why haven't we done this? http://thechive.com/2013/09/17/guys-rig-up-buddies-plumbing-with-beer-wh...
I think this is what we have:
http://schmidling.com/maltmill.htm
From waht I understand we would prefer a direct drive. The couplings are great, def planning on boxing out the motor. Just a switch, like B&G.
Looks like Schmidling, the guy who made our new mill, agrees with the 300-500 rpm range (he says it will crush a pound in 3 seconds at that speed, which is pretty awesome. Even at 150 rpm, that would crush the grain for an average batch in just over a minute. At that rate, I'd make 10 gallon batches much more often...
I'd say we shoot for something in the 100-200 rpm range, particularly if we can find something used in that range. The low rpm motors at McMaster appeared to be prohibitively expensive.
-Adam
Here's a few I found:
These are all motors with the gearbox built in. We could also get these two pieces separately. From looking around it seems like 10:1 gearings are pretty common and not too expensive, so it might be easier to do one of those with another cheaper AC motor.
Oh... my... god. Why haven't we done this? http://thechive.com/2013/09/17/guys-rig-up-buddies-plumbing-with-beer-wh...
Two thoughts:
(1) Do we want to ask B&G what their design is, see what they're using?
(2) In addition to the speed and uniformity of the milling, I personally would like a hopper which can hold a normal batches worth of grain.
Buying a separate gear box is much much cheaper. Low RPM/High torque
motors that I've looked at are very expensive.
James - how did you get to the number for needed torque?
Lucas - the spider is what was recommended to me by people who have
done this in the past. I've heard good things about that product for
helping less than perfect alignments.
A gear box seems like a good idea if the pricing works. the horsepower requred for around 100 rmp is going to need to be 1.25 and increasing to 3.5 at 300 rmp.
It may be worth asking B&G, but I bet they dont know. I think they just bought the whole thing as a unit.
Definitly on the hopper, but thats step two, step one is figure out how to power it.
On the torque I just read through a bunch of forums. Thats the most information I could find. JSP says secifically not to contact them about motors at all, that was my first thought.
I agree on the lower RPM. It will take a little longer...just a
little, but I def notice a much better crush. Even when using the
drill, you can tell that pulling the trigger gently produces cracked
grain. As opposed to when you pull the trigger all the way and produce
pulverized grain.
I haven't used the mill at B and G for over a year. Haven't needed to.
But when I did use the one on kedzie, they had a belt...I know because
it would frequently fall off/slip when I and others used it.
I think a low rpm (100 - 200) with a decent amount of torque is the way to go.
Something like this?
http://youtube.com/#/watch?v=lmRZ0BkCuxE
@Eric, I don't know how much torque that has, but judging by the size of the motor it's probably a lot. 175 RPM is right in our sweet spot as well. So, that would be perfect. Now we just need to know where he got the motor and the reducer.
Anyone have a torque wrench in the 50-150 range? We could figure out how much torqure we would need by using one on a full grain mill
We have a morotized mill at the shop. I will email the owner and see which one he used.
- Fresh
http://brewcamp.com
OK, from a lot of research it looks like what we need for a motor fulfills these requiremenst
HP - .75-1.5
RPM - 1700-1800
voltage - 110 or 115
Frame - 56C (to be compatable with the gear reducers I have seen which seem to be most compatable with is frame type)
Price - Under $75 is great. I am looking into a few in the $140 range right now.
@James - Have you found any good reducers yet? I didn't find any good surplus ones over the weekend. If not, I'll try and dig into those more tonight once I get settled back in the hotel.
To all those looking, please make sure its not a three-phase motor, as we'd have to run special electric lines to the motor and we don't need that level of power.
Oh... my... god. Why haven't we done this? http://thechive.com/2013/09/17/guys-rig-up-buddies-plumbing-with-beer-wh...
I taked to dave on that, so yes only 1 phase motors.
Gear boxes I have found 2 so far:
Item 19973 http://www.youngssurplus.com/gearboxes.htm#Gear Reducers - Ratio From 11 to 30:1
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=400355180403&fromMake...
Based on my reading, I think we can get by with a lower HP motor. 1/4 HP could probably do it if we geared it low enough (i.e. 100 r.p.m. or so). From everything I've read on HBT, as well as the info we got from Fresh, 1/2 hp is almost certainly more than enough for ~200 rpm on our mill.
I know that Harbor Freight doesn't have the best reputation, but here's a 1/2 HP motor that fits all of the criteria and is $100 (plus tax).
@James, Are you finding 10/1 reducers for a reasonable price? All of the appropirate ones at McMaster were like $300.
EDIT: The "1/2 HP motor" text above is a link. Hey lucas, can we make the links a bit more noticable? :-) Thanks!
The two I am looking are are 80 (before shipping) and 70 (after shipping).
There is a 1/2 hp motor I am looking into at $50, waiting to hear back. With a 15:1 reduce @ 1725 RPM we would be getting 220 torque, probably enough. The crankenstine wants 3/4 hp for their big 3 roller, so I am hoping to get a 3/4hp that way I feel very confidant that we wont run into problems.
For a 1/2hp I dont think we should pay much more than $50 as I have found a 1hp @ $100.
James, sounds like you're on top of things. Thanks for all of your legwork!
If it were my money, I would pull the trigger on the 1/2 hp for $50 and the cheaper reducer. For $120 plus some elbow grease for the table and hopper, that seems like a no brainer. Man, being able to just flip a switch and have all my grain crushed in a minute or two would be awesome.
-Adam
Some of the more expensive motors I have been looking at are the Baldor brand, which seems to be very high quality. I am wondering if it would be more worthwhile to buy a motor that costs 150 if it means it will not be a problem in the future.
I have a tendency to overbuild on DIY stuff as the time it takes to redo it is not worth the extra money.
Any opinions on getting something that will probably work for 50-75 vs getting something that will definitely work and not break for 150?
If you guys are using the kitchen cabinet atop the frige for the housing, and since there's going to be a better hotbox, can we use the wood hot box above the barrels as storage (for the kitchen/paper goods; the bins of misc. construction stuff on top of the cabinet; maybe even the jockey box)?
I say get the better quality motor...
@JimChochola - I use my +10 mace of moderation to ask you to move that thought to another thread.
I also agree with Dave, lets get whatever we think is going to have a larger mean time between failures, because I'm guessing its going to get a lot of love from us.
Oh... my... god. Why haven't we done this? http://thechive.com/2013/09/17/guys-rig-up-buddies-plumbing-with-beer-wh...
I would if I could. I don't see where/how to do it, Lucas.
Not the full post, just asking you to make sure any new discussion on that topic goes in its own topic thread.
Oh... my... god. Why haven't we done this? http://thechive.com/2013/09/17/guys-rig-up-buddies-plumbing-with-beer-wh...
If we have the budget for the more powerful motor, there's nothing wrong with trying to over-engineer the mill. I agree that doing something right once is better than doing it wrong and then fixing it. But let's also not let the better be the enemy of the good: 1/2 hp, sufficiently geared down, should be more than enough to run the mill for a long time, even the several batches a week that get done at the brewhouse.
In no way am I objecting to getting the larger motor, and if the price difference doesn't mean waiting, or only waiting for a month or so, I say get the more powerful motor. Just providing a counterpoint.
-Adam
It sounds like this is going to be a somewhat costly project so, just FYI (for this and other projects in the works), we have exactly $824.49 to spend freely.
Hope this is more on topic, Lucas. ;-)
Given our funds, maybe the best use of money is the simply find a
motor that fits our requirements...
Higher quality is nice when you can afford it, but a standard motor
seems to best fit our budget.
Motors are not had to swap if we ensure that the frame size is readily
available. It then becomes a matter of swapping in the event that a
problem occurs.
I would also suggest that we wire in a fuse that will cut the motor
out in the event that the motor is being worked too hard - indicating
a problem. Whether the issue is a pebble in the mill, overloading, or
overuse...an appropriately sized fuse may help us extend the life of
the motor.
Great idea dave. Can you figure out how to wire this thing up with a fuse and a switch? I saw on one of the HB Talk forums how to wire a switch that goes forward and reverse with one switch.
You can assume I will get a 110 or 115 motor. If you send me a part list and a place to buy them I will put in an order.
Thanks.
Per Eric's post.
This is a great setup. On a wheeled cart with scale. Not sure if you guys were able to watch it. I had to cut and paste to get the desktop version; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmRZ0BkCuxE
I also agree with going with a better quality motor as I believe it will be well used.
The emperor is not as forgiving as i am
That setup is exactly what we are trying to do, it is nice.
What do people think about this? its comes with the gearbox attached. No need for two purchases and to worry that they might be incompatible It will give us 450 lb in of torque which is plenty, but it is a bit slow @ 85rpm, (the reducer is a 20:1) I think its 100v which is what we are looking for.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/321031455864?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
OK. Some back of the envelope math (well, back of the internets math, anyway) says that a 1/2 hp motor at 1725 rpm is producing 1.52 ft-lbs of torque, or 18.24 in-lbs. With a 10:1 reduction, we should get 182 in-lbs at 173 rpm, minus whatever losses the gearbox imparts. With a 15:1 reduction, we should get 274 in-lbs at 115 rpm. Given that the folks on HBT are motorizing their mills with as little as 40 in-lbs of torque, it seems that the 1/2 hp motor is more than enough. Even assuming a 20% loss in power from the reducing gears, we still get more than enough (145 in-lbs at 10:1 or 219 in-lbs at 15:1).
Is my math completely off here, or is a 3/4 or 1 hp motor total overkill?
-Adam
I dont trust all that much off HB talk. The only info i have been able to find on a mill manufacurers page is on the Crankenstien. They want 3/4 - 1hp motor @ 300 rpm. I feel confidant that that much power will work with our mill.
85 rpm is slow, but it would still crush 12 lbs in 3-4 minutes, which isn't bad if you can just flip a switch and walk away. Does the gear/belt drive on the reducer come off? I don't know about motors/couplings and if they tend to have a standard shaft diameter or something.
EDIT: if it will work, it might be nice to get the reducer and the motor together, since they are both heavy items and will probably cost a lot to ship.
So there are standards, but sadly there are many from what little I've seen looking around. What we'll want to do is get a coupling that will take the shaft on the reducer and connect it to the mill. We'll just have to get a coupler that is the right size on each side.
Oh... my... god. Why haven't we done this? http://thechive.com/2013/09/17/guys-rig-up-buddies-plumbing-with-beer-wh...
Saw this cart on craigslist http://chicago.craigslist.org/sox/for/3436874258.html
The emperor is not as forgiving as i am
Not sure if this is within the price range, but check these out:
AC MOTOR 1HP 1800RPM 56C 115/208- 230VAC - $123
http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Motors/AC_Motors_-_...(0.25_-_300HP)/AC_Motors-General_Purpose,_Rolled_Steel,_IronHorse_(0.33_-_2HP)/1-Phase_Motors,_56C_(0.33_-_1.5HP)/MTR-001-1AB18
WORM GEARBOX, 1.75IN, 10:1 RATIO 56C-FACE INPUT, RIGHT HAND SHAFT OUT - $147
http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Power_Transmission_(Mechanical)/Worm_Gearboxes_(Speed_Reducers)_by_ratio/10:1/WG-175-010-R
The 10:1 gearbox would give us 180RPM. The motor provides 3.04 lb-ft of torque at full load.
Seems the links got messed up... just copy-and-paste the whole link into your browser.
Motor bought, $75. 3/4HP, 1140rpmd, 115v, 12amps, 56c frame, great brand.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=221121384843
Does anyone travel or live out by 290/294, Elmhurst area that could pick this thing up?
Im about to buy this gear reducer: Shipping is $20
19973
NEW Ohio Gear Gearbox - 12:1 Ratio
NEW Ohio Gear Uniline 2000 - # B2175MQ56 Gearbox - 12:1 Ratio - 1.05 Input HP - 56C Frame Motor Mount - 397 in/lbs of Output Torque - 7/8" Output Shaft - NEW in Box - Weighs 25#
$80.00
So we have $175 into the motorized mill so far.
Dave, can you take a look at the electrical?
I work kind of close to elmhurst. I can do the pick up if you give me
the info...and I'll get something together for electrical.
Do we know the shaft sizes? I'll look into getting some couplers.
Oh... my... god. Why haven't we done this? http://thechive.com/2013/09/17/guys-rig-up-buddies-plumbing-with-beer-wh...
Thanks Dave,
5250 McDermott Dr, Berkeley, IL, 60163. 630-235-6603
7-4pm by appointment only
I ended up buying this reducer on adams recomendation. So we are only at $155 now.
Lucas, the shaft is 5/8
15049
NEW Boston Gear Reducer 300 Series 5:1
NEW Boston Gear Reducer 300 Series 5:1 Ratio - Cat# F313-5-H - 1.110 Input HP - 5/8" Input Shaft 56 C Frame - 5/8" Output Shaft on Both sides - 120 in/lbs of Torque - Some Light rust on Shafts - Weighs 25#
$60.00
By the way, with that motor and that coupler, we should be able to mill 10 lbs of grain per minute (at least according to the MaltMill website). I sense more giant beers and more bulk grain buys in CHAOS's future.
Also, given the power of the motor, I believe this warning will be appropriate:
I'm a little late in watching Bill's video from You Tube but IMHO I like that weighing and milling are done at the very same station: weigh .75 lbs. of one grain you're using and toss into mill; weight 1.5 lbs. of another grain you're using and toss into the mill; weight out the 8 lbs. of a third grain you're using and toss into the mill.
Also, IMHO, Adam's scale (the one that goes from very small oz. all the way to 10+ lbs.) is the best one. Is it possible to add a plug for Adam's scale to the milling cart/area?
what happened to the motor we pulled off the saw?
...igz...
You know what, I just mentioned that to Jim the other night...only
because I cam across it when I was looking for trash bags to change
the garbage. The motor is tucked under the cabinet in the office.
The saw motor wasn't even a thought (on my part at least, totally
forgot about it). That being said, I doubt it would have worked for
us. First, I have no idea what the frame size is or the RPM of the
motor. Second, given that it was left outside for so long, I'm pretty
sure the internals of that thing are beyond rusted and if it does
still work, would make for a short life. I don't even think it
works...but could be wrong.
Regardless, the motor that James found is sitting on the table in brew
bay 1, along with the electrical box.
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