Hello All,
As the club grows and interest in lagering is increasing, we need to recognize that lagering capacity is a limited resource and agree upon some guidelines to ensure fair access. It's not fair for members like myself who are only really interested in brewing lagers to flood the fermentation chambers with my carboys leaving no space for the casual lager brewer to utilize our shared facilities. As it stands the lager fermenting fridge is the bottle neck, with our lagering chamber having a much greater capacity. In order to ensure fair access to all members I'm suggesting we adopt the following guidelines, feel free to suggest some more or some different rules.
1. 1 fermenter per person in the lager fermenting fridge
2. 3 or 4 weeks max allowed in fermenting fridge (I think 4 is better to account for doppels and bigger lagers but 3 is reasonable as well, let me know your opinions)
3. Your time in the fermentation chamber will be tracked by a google doc as suggested by Matt Omura. I don't know how to set one up, any volunteers for that?, we can sticky the link to the top or something, After you brew, log in and register your fermenter. This google doc should show date in and also expected date out so fellow brewers know when a spot will open and can sign up for it.
4. If you leave your fermenter in the fermentation chamber for more than the 3 or 4 weeks (whatever we end up agreeing upon) The next brewer signed up for that space will have the right to move your fermenter to the regular ferm room. Let's be reasonable, after 4 weeks your fermentation is done, you could use a little diacytl rest anyway...It would be courteous for the incoming brewer to notify the outgoing brewer that their fermenter had been moved due to being overtime. However, If there is no waiting list to get in the fermentation fridge your overdue beer won't be touched.
Once we agree on a list we should post the list on the fridges with instructions to access the google doc. The google doc should have at minimum date in, expected date out, Date in the Lagering chamber and date out as well. and like and on-deck list or something for brewers planning a lager brew.
The Lagering Fridge itself has quite a capacity and I'm unaware of any issues with space in there, However I feel like the same rules should apply. I think a 4 week limit would be good there too.
Let me know what y'all think.
Joe, I don't suppose there is any way you'd be amenable to expanding his kind of guideline to the lagering fridge as well?
Getting a little packed in there with beers that have been "cold crashing" for months and I assume that there will be a long line of people wanting to lager in there anyway. A typical lager with modern yeast practices shouldn't need any more than 4 weeks in that chamber, and that fridge isn't really the place you should be storing finished beer anyway.
I also think that it should be a 2 vessal max. On my next lager i want to make a 10 gal batch. One for the club one for me. If i dont book the space fair enough.
The lager fermentation fridge only holds six fermenters total.
www.singingboysbrewing.com
I think 4 weeks is overkill and even 3 is pushing it. With enough yeast and O2, fermentation should be tapering down around the 1 week mark. I generally start fermentation in the 48F fridge and then move to the regular ferm room around day 5-7. The critical part of the ester-producing fermentation has ended, and there will be no detrimental effect of ramping up the temperature at the point. It's beneficial in that you ensure a complete fermentation and diacetyl rest (if needed).
So I suggest 2 week max for the fermenting fridge and 4 week max for the lagering fridge.
@Boolish: As I stated in my original post, the thought now is a 4 week limit in the lagering fridge which will be notated and tracked on the theoretical google doc. That may increase or decrease as this discussion bears out.
@Josh: I can live with a 10 gallon batch/2 vessel exception if you think it's necessary. Never even thought of it to be honest. I think 10 gallon batches of lagers are fairly rare and I don't foresee it creating issues so allowing the occasional one to slip by should be a non-issue. At the very least it's worth implementing the 10 gallon batch/2 vessel exception to begin with and seeing how it goes.
@jim V I think there may be a way to squeeze in a few more, It's not that I don't believe you, it's that for some reason I recall being able to stuff 8 better bottles in there...might have been 6 though...Either way I will swing by probably tomorrow and see how many I can stuff in there, that number will be important as it will be the basis for the google doc
@Kyle I understand your logic and I agree. I have always fermented my lagers for 4 weeks, generally for no other reason than because I could. No one else was clamoring for space in the fridge so it was a non-issue and a 4 week fermentation negated the need for a D-rest because the yeast had enough time to clear it all up...or such was my theory, and it worked well. I am in support of your proposed 2/4 week schedule though. I think that will allow members to make great beers and also cater to the maximum amount of members possible, fulfilling both our goals.
Good stuff folks, keep it coming.
Yea theres no reason you would need to ferment a Lager for 4 weeks. I really think 2 maybe 3 weeks max. After 3 weeks they can be moved to teh ferm chamber for a Diacetyl rest which even for bigger beers shouldn't hurt them. Mine are usually done after 7-8 days.
Also allowing for 10 gallon batches would be great....lagers take so long I've moved up to a ten gallon batch for mine to make up for it.
What if we encouraged the use of gelatin (for those brewing ales that like to cold crash) to free up space in the lagering fridge? I never understood why people cold crash for like a week or two when you could have clear beer in two days with the use of gelatin and we would have a lot more room if people actually did that.
Also why do people put stouts in the lagering fridge? We shouldn't allow dark beers in there as theres no point to cold crashing them.
Adam, even stouts can benefit from cold crashing. Appearance wise it doesn't really matter but it will crash out more of the yeast and protein so that the first 2-3 pints off a keg aren't just yeast sludge. Plus, some flavors will benefit from cold conditioning (green apple, for example, effects both ales and lagers). Gelatin doesn't really do that much good for situations like this and may even be detrimental as it causes all the yeast in suspension to drop out.
As a point of brewing "best practice", lagers should be taken up for diacetyl rest while they are still not done fermenting. Otherwise you risk the yeast going dormant and just dropping out of suspension altogether. Does it matter? Maybe not. But it's worth considering anyway.
I more meant I'm not sure everyone is aware you can get clear beer in like 2 days and if we posted instructions on how to use gelatin as a fining agent maybe we'd clear up more space in there. Its so cheap I wouldn't be opposed to donating a few boxes to the club
Last night we noticed that people are using the lager fridge to carb beer. I think that's fine if the beer is for club use or a party, but, with space at a premium, beer for personal use at hime should be carbbed at home.
What do you guys think?
Jeff, I was under the impression that has *always* been the rule: CO2 and fridge/keezer space can be used to carb anything going on tap at/for the club, otherwise if it's for personal/home consumption, a member may not use club's CO2 or fridge space.
It has been, but I don't think it's been relayed to newer members. We can include it with the new lagering guidelines so everyone is on the same page
With the new serving fridge, under the bar, club beers can be carbed there instead of the cold crash/lagering fridge.
As for using gelatin, I'm not a fan of it. I don't doubt others have had good success with it, but my experience has been mixed. Much prefer a five day cold crash.
www.singingboysbrewing.com
Plus vegans/vegetarians.
I know space is a premium here, but any concerns with at 6 week limit on the lagering fridge? Some pilsners I have made weren't done till 6 weeks. Was that just a fluke or has anyone else run into this?
Sounds to me like if there's room its no problem. I think (and correct me if i'm wrong here) the plan is that if the fridge has no more room in it and someone needs to cold crash they have the option of kicking you out if you've already lagered for 4 weeks. I've also had lagers that really needed 6 weeks ...could definately taste the difference
I'm not really too sure this is headed in a good direction with all the talk of being able to "kick people out."
That someone right on the spot can kick someone's actual fermenting beer (the fridge's original intended purpose) out of a lager fridge smplybecause they want to cold crash doesn't sound right. I suppose if there is *empty* space in the lager fridge a cold-crasher may use it but then it stands to reason that we'd allow lager brewers to take precedence and kick out the cold-crashers. But, then we'd have to ask the cold-crasher to label it as such so we know it's cold-crashing and not fermenting/lagering (unless it's s.t. obvious like a stout or amber).
I think allowing members to "kick out" other members' beer opens the door for people to inadvertently (or intentionally) be dicks by "kicking out" beers that may actually need more time in there just because they "need" to cold crash. Sure there would be the paper or online lagering sign-up sheet but given people can't find/read directions which are right in front of them sometimes, can we guarantee that someone will check the GDoc or paper sign-up to make sure they can remove a beer?
I realize this sounds rigid but how about everything is used for its intended purpose? Lager fermentation fridge for lager fermentation; lagering fridge for lagering; ferm room for ale and other fermenting; &c. I suggested a very modest hot box in another thread; maybe we invest in a small 5 cu.ft. chest freezer for cold crashing (and carbing)? This way people may have a bit more flexibility with how long a lager is in there without fear of getting kicked out.
Or...Joe (or someone else) moderates the fridges closely to ensure there's no need to kick someone out: he'll know exactly who wants in and who needs to go.
The ability to remove anyone else's beer would only apply to the lager fermentation chamber and only if their beer is overtime. that's it. I feel that's a reasonable thing and will not open up to abuse. If your beer is overtime it is mot certainly done fermenting and it needs a D-rest anyway, into the ferm room you go for your D-rest. I don't see any issue with that, especially if we put the limit at 3 weeks...
As far as the lagering fridge goes, There are a great deal of people carbing kegs in there that I think we agree should not be happening unless it is for club use. The keezer is available for that purpose and the new fridge under the bar will be available for that purpose.
We can discuss using one of the doors on the lager fridge for cold crashing and the other two for lagering, I see that as a viable option, but I still feel that cold crashing shoudl only last a few days and therefore will be going in and out so fast as to not impede our lagerers.
After thinking about it I think 10 gallon batches should only be allowed if 5 gallons is for the club.
I think we can get 8 fermenters in the lager fermenting chamber if everyone uses better bottles...
We have to keep in mind that this is a LIMITED RESOURCE, the purpose of these guidelines is to provide equal access to all members and to ensure that this LIMITED RESOURCE is not monopolized by a few people. I understand that you might want to lager your beers for extended periods. to be honest I prefer to lager for months...I used to do it at the club facilities because no one else was clamoring to get in there, I was the only one. Once interest kicked up I went and got a chest freezer for my tiny apartment and I do it at my place now. I feel like that's the reasonable responsible, good citizen thing to do, since I lager a lot, I don't want to dominate the facilities and deny other members, casual lagerers and such, the opportunity to try these styles. A 5 cf chest freezer is like $150 and only takes up a few square feet on floor space, if you want to lager a whole lot all the time like I do, go get yourself one. I'll start the countdown until the outraged masses fire back at me "but I joined the club to use the facilities there" and "I pay dues I have a right to use the equipment" for having said that, but the fact of the matter is that so does every other member and all we are trying to do here is provide everyone reasonable access to what are our most LIMITED RESOURCES I'll use a real estate example to further my point, if a city has beach front property, that beach front property is going to be very expensive because its a limited resource and access to it needs to be restricted somehow because there is not enough to go around...same theory here, there is not enough lager fermenting space and lagering space to go around, we have to limit access to it somehow to ensure fair access for all. To make it fair, time limits will be enforced when a waiting list exists. If someone can think of a more fair way to do this besides purchasing more refrigerated space, I'm all ears...
Also, I think a 6 week limit could be reasonable. The key to all of this will be pragmatism, what we are going to have to do is get the keg carbers out of the lager fridge and see how that effects space, then we will have to implement whatever guidelines we agree upon and test them out, see how they work, see how it effects supply and demand and such and adjust them. It's important to note that we are the ones making the guidelines so we are the ones that alter them. We will implement the initial guidelines we agree upon and tweak them as we go until we arrive at the fairest most equitable solution. There will be some bumps along the way, and since my name is at the forefront of the charge to organize this I'm sure i'll have to deal with some angry members etc. but I'm gonna keep saying it, all we are trying to do is ensure fair access for all members, not just a few.
How about this. Let's reward those who plan ahead.
Let's make this not just a tracking system, but a reservation system. Hell, we could make a tracking page on this website that mimics our brewing schedule.
Anyone who puts in notice and "reserves a spot" after someone, gets first dibs. And, let's make the reservation max 6 weeks. Spots can be held for 3 days (seems reasonable, as not everone will be able to stop by at exactly the time someone else is scheduled to pull their beer.
How's that sound?
Also, how about a constant corner reserved for "chaos keezer lager"?
Kris, an online reservation system would be awesome! Are you able to work with Brock or Conrad to create one?
I don't think this will all be ironed out by next week, but I plan to brew 10 gallons of Maibock for Cerveza next Thursday. Will there be room for me to ferment for a week?
Right now finding space to lager it will probably be your biggest challenge. The fridge has been full of kegs for the past few months. I was in there a couple days ago though and there was room for 2 fermentors no problem. I just took two out of there.
Yeah, the lager fridge is pretty full, I was checking it out last Friday. I'm hoping that by the time I need to use it, in three weeks or so, it'll be a little lighter.
I'm more of a infrastructure guy; don't know much html. But I'll check with those guys and help however I can.
One member is already abusing the chamber. He has 3 carboys in there now and has been squatting his space, ie, pulls a beer out and then puts another back in.
I have been trying for 2 weeks to brew a marzen, but find it frustrating when I witness this kind of selfeshness.
That's why I first raised the issue with the board, Chuck. Its not just one member. I think limiting to one fermenter unless there is space going unused is appropriate.
www.singingboysbrewing.com
Sorry guys, I got a little overzealous with the use of bottom fermenting yeast. I removed two vessels a couple of hours ago - I just need a few more days for the remaining one and then I will take a good long break from playing with S. Pastorianus.
Ok, debate has gone on long enough, it's time for some action. Kris, I like the idea of the online reservation system, but that is something we can grow into and transition, because we will have to get the web team involved and all that. At the least a google doc would be nice so we can reserve space online instead of having to go to the brewhouse to sign the waiting list, I don't have the time to make a google doc right now, but if someone else has the time and the knowledge I would welcome the help. I'll reach out to the web guys sunday and see what they need from me to start the ball rolling. Here are what is now the final version that will be posted this sunday. I'll say it again so people don't jump down my throat, we are going to be pragmatic and see how these work, see how well these encourage the flow in and out and the sharing of the space and make adjustments as necessary. Let's give these a whirl and see what happens. We are gonna start with a 2 week limit. IF we all use better bottles I think we can get 8 in there, that means we can ferment 208 5gal batches a year, I think thats a very strong capacity and should allow anyone who wants to a chance to do it.
1. You will clearly mark your name, contact info, date in and date out on both a carboy tag AND the signup sheet. There will also be an on-deck list for the signup sheet, space will be granted in the order folks sign up for.
2. You are limited to 1 carboy at a time in the lager fermenting chamber. There will be an exception for 10 gallon batches. Only 1 person at a time may use the 10 gallon batch exception.
3. You are limited to a 2 week fermentation period in the lager fermentation chamber. If you go over your two weeks, the next brewer scheduled to be in the lager fermentation chamber will contact you via the number on your carboy tag to politely inform you that it's time for a D-rest and you will find your carboy in the ale ferm room. It is perfectly ok to store your beer at ale temps at this point, it's actually beneficial and something you should do anyway. However, be a team player and get your stuff out on time. If you can't, that's fine, life and emergencies happen, just be cool about it, make a post on the forum, reach out to someone to move it for you, be a good citizen, just don't screw over the next folks in line and ruin their brew day by denying them the space they signed up for.
4. If it's your brew day and there is no space in the lager fermenting fridge, look on the signup sheet and find the oldest fermenter in there, contact that person, be courteous and work with them on a solution to get their beer out so you can get your's in by the end of your boil.
5. You are encouraged to use better bottles with blowoffs, their dimensions allow for more fermenters to fit.
As far as the Lagering Fridge goes I think maybe we should dedicate one door of it to cold crashing and the other 2 to lagering.
Lagering Fridge Guidelines:
1. 6 week time limit for lagering, 1 week limit for cold crashing.
2. You are encouraged to lager and cold crash in kegs, this uses more vertical space, which is plentiful and saves floor space which is more limited.
3. Same signup sheet rules as lager fermenting fridge
As I said, we'll be pragmatic and adjust things as we go to fine tune it and make it as fair and equitable for everyone as possible. I don't want anyone to be discouraged from brewing lagers because they can't ever get in the fridge, I also don't want to limit folks like myself who want to brew nothing but lagers...but we need to share and exercise some courtesy and good will toward each other. That's what these guidelines will attempt to do, we'll live with them for a little while and tweak them to fit our needs a bit better once we learn how they work.
Joe, If your labeling and making rules for the lagering fridge anyways are there any rules or space designated for carbing kegs? Most of the time at least half of it is full of people carbing
A couple of folks have mentioned using the serving fridge behind the bar to carb kegs. But also, if kegs aren't going to be served at CHAOS, they should probably be carbed up at home.
www.singingboysbrewing.com
Carbing kegs at the brew house is a no-go, unless they are for parties or being shared on the keezer.
Adam, I agree with the above that carbing should not be happening unless it is beer for the club. However, if we divide the lager fridge as I mentioned above with 2 doors for lagering with a 6 week limit and 1 door for cold crashing with a 1 week cold crash limit, and noting that I am requesting folks use kegs to take advantage of the more abundant vertical space, I think it would be reasonable for folks to have their kegs hooked up to CO2 while performing either of those actions, provided it is their own gas equipment and not club equipment. This needs to be thought out though, because it seems ripe for abuse. I think it's worth a try to begin with and see how it goes.
Adam, I agree with the above that carbing should not be happening unless it is beer for the club. However, if we divide the lager fridge as I mentioned above with 2 doors for lagering with a 6 week limit and 1 door for cold crashing with a 1 week cold crash limit, and noting that I am requesting folks use kegs to take advantage of the more abundant vertical space, I think it would be reasonable for folks to have their kegs hooked up to CO2 while performing either of those actions, provided it is their own gas equipment and not club equipment. This needs to be thought out though, because it seems ripe for abuse. I think it's worth a try to begin with and see how it goes.
Adam, I agree with the above that carbing should not be happening unless it is beer for the club. However, if we divide the lager fridge as I mentioned above with 2 doors for lagering with a 6 week limit and 1 door for cold crashing with a 1 week cold crash limit, and noting that I am requesting folks use kegs to take advantage of the more abundant vertical space, I think it would be reasonable for folks to have their kegs hooked up to CO2 while performing either of those actions, provided it is their own gas equipment and not club equipment. This needs to be thought out though, because it seems ripe for abuse. I think it's worth a try to begin with and see how it goes.
How about this:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1B2Plkm9OdfBhcXFcHJTnP9WNp13-fpaq...
- made 6 reservation slots for the lager primary fridge. sounds like we can't guarantee 8 slots if not everyone is using better bottles, wouldn't want to have anyone reserve a spot and be shut out
- not sure how many spaces there are in the lager contitioning fridge, started with 18. divided them up by door, with the suggestion being left door = 6 weeks max, corny kegs only; middle door = 4 weeks max; right door = 2 weeks max.
http://tinfoilhatbrewery.com/
added 3 examples reservations so you can see how this mght work
- the red one: two week primary fermentation in Bay P2 of the lager primary fridge, then moves over to bay C8 of the lager conditioning fridge for four weeks
- the blue one: just like the red one, two week primary fermentation in Bay P3 of the lager primary fridge, then moves over to bay C11 of the lager conditioning fridge for four weeks
- the green one: takes bay P3 following blue's reservation for a two week primary fermentation in the lager primary fridge, then moves over to bay C2 of the lager conditioning fridge for six weeks
http://tinfoilhatbrewery.com/
Joe, I don't think we should go down that road of allowing people to take up space carbing for personal use. There are just way too many people who want to use the fridge.
Agreed. No to carbing in the lager fridge. There should be space to carb (for parties/club consumption) in the fridge behind the bar.
I see where your coming from. No carbing in the lager fridge shall be the law of the land also, I don't have time to look now, but matts Google doc sounds brilliant
Matt, I really like the Google doc!! Super easy to use and read.
Thanks Jeff. If you're still planning on brewing your Maibock on Thursday, why don't you put a reservation in the google doc and get us started? (Joe's "day of reckoning" isn't til Sunday so I'm not sure that there will be room in there before that though, FYI)
I'm out of town for the next week or so but if we want to adopt this system then someone should tape off spots on the floor of the lager primary fridge and label them P1-P6. Off the top of my head I'd suggest triangles... ASCII art view from above:
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
| P1 / | P3 / | P5 / |
| / | / | / |
| / P2 | / P4 | / P6 |
|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------|
left door center door right door
http://tinfoilhatbrewery.com/
Okay, I broke ground on the spreadsheet and added my lagers to the primary fridge.
Quick question, the lager conditioning fridge sheet has 'corny kegs only' in it's heading. Is that just for people who plan to carb? When I reach the actual lager stage, my beer will still be in carboys.
Jeff,
I know this may not be the place for it but I'm transferring a pilsner tomorrow that I fermented with 34/70....if you'd like to use the yeast cake from it (and save some $$) then you're more than welcome to.
Jeff,
I know this may not be the place for it but I'm transferring a pilsner tomorrow that I fermented with 34/70....if you'd like to use the yeast cake from it (and save some $$) then you're more than welcome to.
Jeff, I think that's an artifact left over from the conversation about encouraging lagering in kegs. The thought was not to let carbing occur but rather that kegs take up more vertical space than floor space and we could therefore cram more in. We never agreed to make it rule, just wanted to encourage keg usage to maximize floor space. By all means use what you have and is best for you.
Also, the spreadsheet is brilliant. Can't thank Matt enough for the stellar work on that for us. I will tape off spaces Sunday.
> the lager conditioning fridge sheet has 'corny kegs only' in it's heading. Is that just for people who plan to carb? When I reach the actual lager stage, my beer will still be in carboys.
right now the bays are divided by doors, and the headings are left door = 6 weeks max, corny kegs only; middle door = 4 weeks max; right door = 1 week max.
The thought here was that if you're going to take up fridge space for longer than the standard 4 weeks, you should be required to use a corny keg to save space. just a suggestion at this point
http://tinfoilhatbrewery.com/
Ah, got it. Thanks for the clarification, guys.
Adam, thank you for the offer, but I already have a Wyeast starter going at home and bought dry yeast packets for my other five gallons to compare the two.
Well I'm going to assume we're off and running, so made my reservation ;)
Thanks for the great work, Matt and Joe. Let's plan on getting those sample reservations off sometime in the next few days (or after the purge).
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