As many of you have noticed, our space is getting a bit crowded. The board has evaluated several alternatives, including a pod like Reed has, just reorginizing, or taking more space. CHAOS is continuing to grow and we're coming up on our brewing season. We've committed to our current space for the next three years, and are approaching capacity. At this point we are mainly looking at addtional space to make CHAOS even more awesome.
James and I went with the new landlord to see the upstairs space on Tuesday - he's very interested in making sure that we take it. Since most people haven't seen it James helped me with measurements to complete the floor plan below.
I'd very much like to hear everyone's thoughts on how to best use the upstairs. Space planning is being prioritized to do three things: 1. Provide a better brewing experience to our members. 2. Provide new services to our members. 3. Generate revenue to pay for the addtional rent.
Current ideas that are being condsidered include:
1. Moving all storage to the space upstairs labled enterence room, more than doubling available storage. Any move of member storage allows us to increase the ferm room size substantially and possibly have two temp zones (also allows for fermenter storage expansion). ($5 / per space per month) addtional $150 per month revenue potiential
2. Take above barrel storage to the office or toolshed, allowing for more barrels.
3. Create a CHAOS member co-op area, for purchase of yeast, hops, grains and supplies. There would be a 20% margin over wholesale cost, allowing to pay for some amount of the cost of the upstairs. ($200 monthly revenue target based on a projected sales of $13.70 per brew @ CHAOS)
4. Hold classes in office and common area. Possible revenue based on rental.
5. Allow Office or entrance room to be a practice area, renting nightly for band practice.
6. CHAOS lab fit with microscope, autoclave, camera, media supplies, pH meter, and more. (Sub membership revenue possible, or just free added benefit)
7. Proper area for CHAOS library.
The addtional rent would be $1000/ month, which is $10.46 / sqft. I have personally committed to sub leasing the "office" area for $250 per month until such time as CHAOS needs and support the space, putting our required monthly revenue at $750. We currently have about $10K in available funds, and storage and brewing supply sales likely knock out another $350, bringing needed revenue to $400, which I'm hoping to cover with 14 new brewer level members. I welcome everyone's thoughts.
This is amazing, Mark. Thank you and James for putting this together.
I'm all about extra space for storage. We all know the storage in the back is at a premium, and I'm sure more members would utilize the additional space at Chaos for a fee. I think the upstairs has a great deal of potential (especially if we can afford it)
One thing that Struck brought up when we were speaking about this the other day - If you guys decided to move forward with this space, storage, etc - do you think that the upstairs would hold all the potential grain/misc we'd store up there?
I know just by looking at the ceiling of the brewhouse doesn't tell all - but it looks like it may have its weak spots.
Also - awesome idea of a band practice area! The fee for the good ones would be playing our parties! ...Better yet, get a "Battle of the Chaos Bands" going for Stout and Chili Night.
Thanks for doing all this work, guys. You can really tell that you put a lot of thought and effort into it. I have had great conversations with multiple people about the pros and cons of the added space and cost. I am still of the mind that our space is enough of used properly. I enjoy the breathing room our current fiscal position has and I am extremely weary of who will do the volunteer work it will take to make sure all of these initiatives are successful and profit producing. We have a hard time getting members to pour beer at our parties. The added financial strain will deplete our reserves and place us in a position that may cause us to increase membership fees to a prohibitive point for the casual brewer/beer lover. I know there is growth opportunity here and I have heard great points to argue mine. But I would rather see an ernest attempt to fully use our space that we have (fermenter storage and ferm use limits enforced, off site storage for quarterly party materials, etc) then add a financial obligation we may not be able to fill. I look forward to a respectful dialogue about this subject and a consesus that can only be achieved over delicious homebrews!
If we can implement the ingredients idea, I think we might be okay, but I am not a fan of renting it out for band practice space. That is going to add a lot of security issues, particularly strangers having access to the brew house.
I think John is right on. $12,000.00/yr for storage sounds pretty outrageous to me, sorry. As John said, I would much rather see an initiative to use our current space equitibly for all members. From what i have seen, there are a handful of members creating the need for additional storage space, which is not really fair to put all of us on the hook for.
The numbers being thrown around here are way larger than Mark and I had figured when we went up to the space, so let's break down the numbers as they stand right now.
Mark has committed to to subleasing the a quarter of the space from the club until it becomes financially viable for the club to take over the space for him for $250/month.
Currently there are 40 storage spaces for club member rental. If we assume 20 alchemists are getting their storage spots for free (BTW, Jeff, which space is mine?), there are currently 20 paid spaces, bringing in $100 a month.
I calculate based on the dimensions that storage in the upstairs space would add 48 new storage spaces, which gives us $240 new money that can go directly to paying the rent for the upstairs.
So before we even start on how to monetize the space with a homebrew "co-op" sales model for yeast/malts/grains, we have already accounted for half of the cost for "free".
The opportunity cost here is the use of an off-site storage space for club materials. It's going to cost us about $150 a month for storage space for a very basic 10x15 space (this assumes that we can both fit everything in a 10x15 space, and we are willing to take the hit of not having some materials on-demand).
The way I see it, the true cost of the upstairs in terms of additional spending by the club is about $350 a month, for a total of $4,200 additional spend per year. These are dues of only 15 new members.
Sponsorship deal with Tenth and Blake notwithstanding, I think this provides an opportunity to grow the club and expand member space and a price the club has already shown to be willing to pay. We spent close to $6000 last year on a new sink and lager fridge. We spent almost $1000 already this year on capex relating to the purchase of the water pressure booster and new seats for the bar. These are all things that disproportionally benefit frequent members.
If anyone believes that there are more efficient ways of making space, I welcome the proposal. But so far, nobody has gotten a quote for a storage unit or on-site pod to provide an alternative, nor have they provided a plan to enforce fermentation room limits.
James - I have suggested that we get some stickers made, bright orange, water proof with the CHAOS logo, space for name, phone#, etc. Everyone gets two to put on their fermentors. That is a $40-50, one-time solution.
The original post said $1,000/month additional rent, which is what we would ultimately be obligated. I also thought the original estimate was $500/month. The assumptions you make are big ones(Do we have 48 people on the waiting list for storage?). I would like to see the clutter reduced as well, but I feel like we are throwing a lot of money at something instead of trying to enforce the current limits and rules first.
I had a productive conversation with James last night and a good understanding was found. The real question here is the level and speed of growth the club wants to achieve. I believe there is a good amount to grow based on using our space more efficiently and enforcing rules that are in place and possibly installing new rules. What James and Mark have laid out is a good vision for a club that wants to grow and grow aggressively. I really don't see that as a mandate that our club has or one that I want to adopt at the expense the comfort and security our club currently has. We are still a one of a kind club that takes care of our members needs, regardless of some use it more then others (gas, pbw, etc). We can still grow if we instill and enforce space and accountability issues, like the ones Rich suggested. If we cleaned above the barrels we could store more barrels. There are different ways to do tent city (like a rent of tents or purchase and storage) that are cheaper and less of an obligation. I would rather see $ on hand for improvements in brewing equipment/needs and room to breath in case events don't creat revenue. Even having more club sponsored events for our membership, with their/our money is WAY more appealing use than growth of a non for profit, volunteer based brewing club. I'm not advocating for house parties on the clubs dime, but we could use maybe one "hey, let's all meet and get to know each other better" event for all of the members. I'd rather see that then use of resources to try and find/seek out/convince people to join our club.
Either way, we need to set a day to address this during a general membership meeting and then to have a transparent board vote. I think this needs to be property voted on by elected members, but those elected people need to hear the thoughts and concerns of ALL of CHAOS. If I'm in the minority, then I would like to hear that from the club. And if the club wants this growth then I'll do all in my power to support and kill the shit out of it! Thanks to all for your ideas and conversation here. It's refreshing to see such disagreement in a positive and productive way and reflects the spirit of the founders of CHAOS
I want to reiterate that while I may have a point of view on this, my role as president is to enact the will of the board, who should be using their judgement to meet the needs of the wider membership. I'm pleased that there is very healthy debate on this, and it should be taken seriously. I think a broad discussion on if we take the upstairs with everyone who wants to attend is nessicary before we can make a final call.
Some people remember that the orginal alcomists stepped up and paid the rent in shares at our previous spaces. I've already committed $250 a month until the upstairs is solvent based on storage and other income. If anyone else wants to step up with a mini sponsorship of any amount, I'd welcome that and we may make the choice easier.
I would like to add to the storage discussion with specific numbers. (I'm still undecided on the upstairs, but want to provide this to help along the discussion.
We currently have nine storage spots that are rented for a total of $540/year. All the other spots are comped to alchemists. As of now the waiting list consists of James (free), Sean, Todd, and Brandon who will bring in an additional $180/year. So, providing no one else currently renting or on the waiting list becomes an alchemist, that brings us up to $720/year. I am in the process of asking alchemists who no longer brew at the club to release their spaces, so everyone currently on the list should have a space within the next month or two.
While we wouldn't need 48 more people to rent spots, as the upstairs would allow people to double up on storage space with alchemists paying for an additional spot, I don't think it's safe to assume those 48 spaces will all generate additional income.
Unlce Bob's Storage (just south of us on Western) has the following pricing:
- 5' x 5' starting at $62/month
- 5' x 10' starting at $94/month
- 5' x 15' starting at $156/month
- 10' x 10' starting at $164/month
I see using off site storage as a good way to declutter the brew house. We could use it to store tents, tables, the boxes in the shower, that stupid big ass fan, the extra buckets we use for kegs during the party, etc.
Instead of making all storage spaces the same dimensions, would there be possibility to have various sizes available? And just like the Uncle Bob's pricing (or any common price structure), there would be price "breaks" for renting more space. I know I would be interested in renting more space, regardless.
Absolutely! The upstairs would provide us with more flexibility with storage configuration. Another cost to consider is the purchase of new storage shelves or whatever method we decide to use.
I like Kyle's suggestion of bigger spaces. The existing storage space size doesn't do much for me so I'm not really interested because I would still have to keep the majority of my grain and supplies at home regardless. If a doublewide was available for say $10/month, and it was enough space to fit my small barrel and a stack of grain tupperwares side by side, it would be a potential game changer.
And once 100% of my reserves are at the club, the case for buying additional supplies from a club co-op vs. traveling for them gets much stronger...
I'll also say I'm strongly against alternative uses of the upstairs (band practice etc.) for non-members without a dedicated, secure entrance. Giving groups of people access to an out-of-the-way, unsupervised building that has free beer on tap sounds like a recipe for disaster.
Empty fermenter (and empty keg) storage is out of control...even if all the remaining ones happen to have names written on them, I don't believe for a minute that they actually get for 90% of the ones up there.
http://tinfoilhatbrewery.com/
For those wanting a larger storage area we could do what we did in the loft on Ogden. Tape off areas on the floor and you get that are from floor to ceiling for storage.
I use 3 of these 60lbs containers at home and would probably move them down to the brewhouse. The only reaseon they are not there is the shelving would not hold them; https://www.amazon.com/Vittles-Vault-Outback-Stackable-40/dp/B0002H3S5K
The emperor is not as forgiving as i am
Matt, any storate spaces would be the same size as the current ones.
The dimensions are 36" wide, 18" deep, and 19" tall (except for the top shelf space). An online resource I'm looking at says they are 14 inches tall, so it should be able to fit just fine.
I don't know how large a grain tupperware is but the 40 pound pet food Vittles Vault ones that many members use can fit into the space dimensionally right now.
Double wide and double tall spaces would be just fine (and in fact I believe the club used to do that when we had fewer members willing to pay for space). The only limitation right now is that there are no storage spots up for use because they are all spoken for.
Bill, to direclty address your point, people on the floor spaces would be able to do exactly what you are suggesting, the key point currently being there are no floor spaces available.
I think it's ok that some spaces are in higher demand than others (ie. bottom two shelves so you get the floor plus double height, or the top space that has less load bearing capacity but you can stack lighter supplies up), but at the end of the day, neither of these are tenable in the current configuration.
So Matt and I like the idea of storage spaces varying in size, Jeff says that could happen, Bill offers suggestions how that could happen, now James says they'd all be the same. Love it - CHAOS indeed.
Kyle, I wasn't saying they'd all be the same. I said that the dimensions would be the same as the ones currently in the back of the clubhouse. The height of the upstairs room is jus inches shorter than the current brewhouse ceiling, so the shelves would be identical.
What you and Matt were talking about, I think was buying two spaces at once to get more space. Impossible now because there are no two free spaces side by side, but is feasible if we were to have the space to expand storage.
James, I don't think you completely understood what I meant. We currently have shelving the is 36"Wx18"D. What I am suggesting is that one wall could be divided in to 36"Wx36"D from floor to cieling storage spaces, no shelving (unless provided by renter). These spots would be rental only, NOT FREE Alchemist spots, those are the shelf units. The floor spaces could be rented at a higher rate then a shelf unit.
The emperor is not as forgiving as i am
As a board member I'm very conflicted on this, and I really want to see the opinions of a greater swath of membership before I vote, so I can be certain I'm representing them as best as I can but also using my own judgement to help guide the club successfully. The price is a big turn off for me, but the possibilities the space opens up for us are very attractive. I don't want to expand too fast and dilute who we are, but some folks like Mark really believe in this for our future and he is willing to put his own personal money where his mouth is, that says a lot to me about the potential I may not be seeing. This is heavy and we need to hear from folks.
I like the idea of having more storage space (I waited a while to get my spot, and would happily take a second one next to it), but I'm not sure if we can rent them all out as easily as some seem to think. James mentioned above:
That's great, if we can find 48 more people who want a spot (or 24 who want a double-wide, or a combo, you get the idea). I don't think we have that many people jumping at the chance to get storage space, so I would caution against considering that income all but made.
I do like the floor-to-ceiling idea, too. We probably only have a few people who would want one, but maybe we can set aside 3 or 4 spots for members to install their own shelf configured as they see fit—or even one of those locking upright mini-shed things, if one is concerned about their refractometer growing legs.
If someone wants to rent a floor to ceiling space without shelving for $20, I think that's a fine idea. We just have to be aware of the eventuality of storage space getting sparse and new members getting 0 while some old memhers have a whole closet space to themselves.
I am pretty convinced that it won't even be one year before we start reaching the storage capacity, especially if we have members renting 4 vertical spaces at a time.